Sunday, May 22, 2016

Another Open Comment Forum

Someone suggested I do these periodically, and it seems like a good idea. (Gives me a break too, and my life just keeps getting busier, so I'm good with that!)

As usual, I'll flip the mike around so everyone out there can talk in the comment section about what they want to.

If you're stuck for a subject, here's an idea: Discuss what you find most puzzling about your knee pain. Of everything that doesn't make sense, what's the biggest mystery you wish you had an answer to?

And, of course, if you don't like that suggested topic, feel free to disregard. Cheers, and hope everyone is having a good spring!


  1. Hey guys
    I have been following this forum for quite sometime. I've followed Richard's recommendation to do progressive walking for about 4 months now. I am able to walk two kilometres a day without serious pain. However any other strenuous activity OR walking more than two kilometres seems to cause inflammation within my knees. That inflammation takes around two days to recover. Currently, I am stuck in this cycle of inflammation and recovery. My physiotherapist tells me that I need to build more muscle mass in my legs as I have lost most of it due to inactivity for many months. I am wondering what other activities you guys have tried that have been tolerable for your knees. I dont have access to total trainer so I am looking for alternatives which allow me to expand my envelope of function. Thanks a lot. Appreciate any suggestions.


    1. Hi Ash,

      I've been in the same boat and what has worked for me is the following:

      You indicated you can not walk more than 2km without pain? I would walk 1km for a week or 2, and if that does not cause any flare ups, I would walk 1.5km for a week or 2, and then try 2km, then 2.5km and so on.....

      I didn't start walking until after months of work on the total trainer because I was struggling to just walk.

      As for your PT's recommendation regarding the muscle work - I did try to strengthen the muscles surrounding my knees and it made my knees significantly worse. The joint itself could not tolerate the amount of stress needed to strengthen muscles - so I would be cautious.

      Best of luck,

    2. Hi Ash,

      I undertook 3 months of physiotherapy for Patellofemoral Pain Syndrome and the exercises prescribed to strengthen my quads and other knee-related muscles definitely prolonged my knee pain and prevented me from recovering. I abandoned physiotherapy and commenced a program of walking for 5 minutes a day for one week, avoiding all stairs and hills and avoiding carrying anything over 1kg in weight, EVER. I increased the amount of walking I did by a couple of minutes every week and gradually increased my walking speed as well. Now I can walk briskly for 35 minutes.


    3. I was really excited after a relapse and 50 days of suffering (a chiro told me to try yoga. BAD idea). I could finally walk a short lap around my campground and rest for 10 min or so. I walk a lot at work and got up to almost 9,000 steps. I went to PT and boom I'm done again. The exercises kill me they just hurt. I think I will quit today it was my second round I didn't want to do it again but I could barely walk. I need to get this book and learn what to do with the total gym. Hopefully one of the gyms I have memberships to has a total gym.

    4. You sound like another victim of bad physical therapy. I'm starting to think they're in cahoots with the knee surgeons. Anyway a quick warning: my book doesn't show you a lot of specific exercises to do for your knee pain. If you want that, I'd look at buying Doug Kelsey's excellent electronic book (The 90 Day Arthritis Remedy) at

  2. An update from me.

    I'm making good progress, now cycling 3x/week for 30-60mins (some of it pretty hard) and jogging on treadmill 2x/week for 30mins (as 4min jog/1min walk). Also trying to fit in a swim once per week (but still not kicking - using pull buoy & bands) and 1-2x 20-30min hard gym sessions with leg strength work (deadlifts, kettlebell swings, bands).

    My knees still get sore & stiff, but way better than at their worst and still seem to be improving. The constant burn is almost gone, and I can sit for longer with bent knees.

    I'm pretty sure there was a systemic inflammatory component to my problem after discussing with Ed and reading his references, possibly with a fungal link, or perhaps the chemicals in our rather toxic local indoor pool which is my only option in winter (yes, even here in Oz, we have cold winters). So I've also just started taking garlic capsules (anti-fungal)and RoseHip Vital with GoPo (a natural anti-inflammatory with some good trial results showing benefits for osteoarthritis).

    The most puzzling thing about my knee pain was the lack of rhythm or reason to what would give me setbacks. For example, deadlifts & kettle bell swings which involve serious load on the knees actually made them feel better, while kicking while swimming freestyle stirs them up - go figure?

    Also the incredible speed with which it stared in May 2012. Within a month after the best race of my life and a fairly minor knee surgery on one knee, I was crippled in BOTH knees. Again, this leads me to think there was something systemic going on.

    1. Thanks so much for sharing your story and updates!


  3. Superman, I too have been struggling to find a source for strength and aerobic exercises that won't cause me many days of recovery and pain in my knees. Unlike some others here, I don't have any structural knee issues other than chondromalacia patella (cartilage loss to grade 3 and 3/4 of the kneecap) in both knees. So my knees load up fairly well but I can't really bend them without pain. Over the last couple of years I have really laid low on the exercies, I would also say that due to the lack of exercises, my knees don't load as well as they used to. I have been doing some walks on and off recently of about 1-2 miles and a brisk pace, but have found that these aren't particularly aerobic for me and the weather here in CA will soon turn quite hot (so no more outside walks). Generally the walks will give some burning to the knee cap but I tolerate it. We just purchased a rather expensive Nordic Track incline Trainer, for both me and my wife to use. I have slowly started using this but I can tell that it aggravates my knee for now. I have kept the incline to 5% so far and will phase this in slowly and see how it goes. I'm really hoping that I can tolerate the incline with time as it is exceptionally aerobic.

    Frankly I'm at a bit of a loss as to what to do to stay fit and keep muscle. I'm a skinny guy and keeping weight off is no problem, but I also struggle with keeping muscle on too; I can tell that I've gotten weaker and my arms and legs are too thin now. I do enjoy to lift weights; also not unlike others here, I have been in a inflammatory condition in other parts of my body while I battle this chronic knee issue (as a side note I had a similar path to TriAgain). Right now both my forearms experience moderate golfers elbow and sometimes tennis elbow (largely due to my work conditions with the computer), therefore this significantly inhibits my ability to lift moderate weights with some muscles. I just picked up the ArmAid and have high hopes this will treat this condition. It has been a real downer of sorts for me as of lately. Many in here have tried the Total Trainer and I have spent some time reviewing videos of this equipment this weekend. It looks like it could get fairly aerobic with enough muscle workout, and the plus side is you don't have to switch back and forth for all the free weights that I would use now. Lots of people here use it for easing knees into leg squats due to knee issues. I'm a bit concerned that to get full use of the equipment you have to do many of the exercises sitting on your legs (knees bent) on the board...not sure how this will work out for my issue (anyone here have comments on this?). I've tried using a spin bike but pretty much anything that involves a bend of the knee and loading is going to cause some issues for me. I think I'm at a point where I have to just suck it up and go through some pain to maintain physical health. My mind and thoughts wonder and have concern when I think about pushing through pain as in my case, my cartilage is nearly gone...there aren't many options for me (other than a TKR) and I cringe to think I would be causing more damage and wear to my cartilage to "push through". However the flip side of this is that I must stay healthy and strong; yes I will likely get a TKR at some point in my life, but when this happens I want to be fit and not as I am right now.

    So sorry that I don't have much in the way of ideas to offer you, hopefully others here will chime in and we both can benefit from new ideas and encouragement.

    1. Hal, can you swim freestyle? If so, do that with a pull bouy between your thighs and a loop around your ankles (I made it out of an old bicycle tube) to stop you kicking. That will give you an aerobic workout and maintain upper body strength. I swam 2-3x/week for 20-40mins of solid freesytle intervals (100-400m) with limted rest between.

      I also found doing upper body gym work helped a lot (chinups, pullups, benchpress, lat pulldown, lat row, planks for core, upright rows, half-supermans, situps). The only leg stuff I could do was sideways crab walk with a thera band around ankles or feet - slightly bent forward works the glutes more, upright gets the hips more..

      And just gentle walking for 20-30mins each morning.

      After 2-3yrs of only doing that (I used to swim/run/ride 8-16hrs a week, so a big reduction in exercise), sure my legs had wasted, but I still had some aerobic conditioning and my upper body was stronger than it had been for years.

      Then I started to introduce a little leg strength work as part of a hard 20-25min aerobic weights circuit (deadlifts, kettlebell swings).

      Then I started 10-20mins on a spinbike, then progressed to an MTB (not clipped in), and now road bike. And a little joging on treadmill.

      I also stretch my hammies and adductors/abductors, lower back a lot.

      I still have a long way to go, but it is progress.

  4. I have over the past year been continuously stop starting exercise. Each time I try something it feels like it's making the pain worse so I give up, stop for a while and then try something else. Recently I came across this paper.
    It's entitled "Pain trajectory and exercise-induced pain flares during 8 weeks of neuromuscular exercise in individuals with knee and hip pain". I've found it helpful as it gave me the confidence to get over the initial pain flares and persist this time. I've been going to the gym and doing weights. The first time I went the pain flare was pretty nasty - not that lovely DOMs muscular feeling but joint pain. All of my joints hurt so there's not really a safe exercise for me. Over three of four weeks I've found exactly what they predicted in this paper. Overall pain down and pain flares down. The reduction in my upper body pain has been really significant. It does challenge the envelope of function theory a little but maybe if you are past a certain point in the arthritic process then you have to face there will be pain whatever you do. You have to stick with it.

    1. CartilageRepairMan, it is interesting to note that I have similar symptoms to yours. My pain started in the knees around 5 months ago. I didnt have any pain in other joints until about April when I started noticing some pain in my elbows (triggered by improper typing position since I do a lot of computer work). The pain slowly progressed to both elbows, wrists. At this point, any aerobic exercise, even swimming for 10-20 mins seems to cause joint pains throughout my body (knees, elbows, wrists etc). A lot of the times the pain isn't related to the intensity of the workout. So my best guess is there is an inflammatory process that starts in my body after any aerobic exercises that takes around 2-3 days to subside.

      The paper you linked to is interesting. I am going to try to stick through the swimming for a few weeks and see if there is a net reduction in inflammation.

      It is worth noting I recently got a second MRI, there is no cartilage damage. There is mild inflammation in both the fat pads of my knees. There is now a grinding/clicking noise when I bend my elbows/wrists.

      Thanks for posting your links and do let us know how your progress is over the coming weeks.

    2. Also I have been wondering if anyone in this forum has tried some of the techniques popularized by Wim Hof.

      Since joint pain is often coupled with an excessive inflammatory response by the body, I was wondering if someone has tried the Wim Hof method to control their immune response to stress (exercise in our case).

      I intend to try this over this summer and will post updates with my results.


    3. Superman I've read about Wim Hof. I've tried meditation a little but not the sitting in snow/ice water bit... Will be interested to hear how you get on. So yet another person with fairly simultaneous multi-joint pain. Why did my physio tell me this was unusual?

    4. I suffered from multi-joint travelling joint pains until I discovered that I have multiple food intolerances (different from allergies) and removing several items from my diet has cured it. You might be interested in taking a look at


    5. I applied the same principle when doing water physio. The idea is to work through the pain, but only if the pain is not getting worse. And only in the water, water level up to the chest, so that my body weight is reduced to 30% and the load on the joint is greatly reduced. Eventually, the pain starts to go down, and you can increase the load by moving to shallower water and increasing the speed / intensity. It does work, but it takes a while and of course you need to be careful of what you do outside the water.

    6. CartilageRepairMan, I found the more detailed study related to your link. It's a great read:

  5. Quick update from me (Alex):

    At my very worse walking around the grocery store was enough to stir up my knees, constant ache/tingle/burn. Started working with one of DK's coaches, we started on the total gym and very very slowly progressed to walking upright on treadmill and now outside. It's been very slow, I'm improving and have a long ways to go but I finally feel like I'm making some traction.

    What puzzled me the most:
    After 2 years of being an avid cross-fitter I gained significant strength in my entire body, especially my legs (quads and glutes) and then at age 25 I was completely crippled in both knees. 3 years later I'm still struggling.

    Secondly, the amount of joint pain I've had in other areas of my body; especially elbows. Reading this blog there seems to be multiple people who experience elbow pain. I've also had pain in hips, back, and ankles. I believe there is some sort of systemic inflammatory process along with an issue regarding neuropathy. I read a lot of Mosley and Doidge info on neuroplasticity and the brain and I believe that plays a large role.

    I'm still unable to move hard enough to break a sweat and the elbow joint pain prevents me from training my upperbody in the way that I would like and is enough to elevate heart rate.

    I find I am recovering from flare-ups much faster so that is progress.


    1. Sounds like a fairly familiar theme on here Alex, and more evidence that the standard 'strengthen your quads/VMOs' is not the silver bullet most physios seem to think it is.

      I've not mentioned this before, but I also went through 6mths of elbow pain (both golfers & tennis elbow symptoms concurrently) after an intense week of fly-fishing. I've done intense weeks before and never had that problem. Took 6mths to resolve.

    2. Interesting about your elbows TriAgain. Dk's coach has given me other exercises for elbow/back/etc and each exercise has been very gentle tendon/joint focused; NOT the aggressive muscle based exercises that every other PT recommends.

      I saw multiple docs and a surgeon all of whom recommended VMO/Quad strengthening except for 1 who had knee pain himself and discovered that hey - that prescription doesn't work.


    3. Hi Alex,
      Could you give me the name of your coach. If you dont mind me asking, do you visit him/her in person or remotely through Skype.


    4. Hi Ash,

      I meet via Skype. I've attached h website for you to browse for information.

  6. This is becoming a place for commercial marketing. Richard, please do something!

    Hello everyone!
    I'm back.
    For those who do not remember, 6 months ago I've shared my MRI images as evidence that the cartilage can heal itself.
    Unfortunately, I went for another MRI because my orthopedist said that the pictures are not of sufficient quality.
    This time images are much better quality and revealed chondromalacia patella 1b.- 2 grade on both knees.
    Im feeling about the same. Neither better nor worse. Status quo.
    My next step would be stem cells treatment because I tried more-less every other possible option.
    I've been exercising for two years almost every day, tried
    injections of hyaluronic acid, orthokin blood injections (they did help), walked every day for more than two years...
    Conclusion is: chondromalacia is irreversible, but with time one can feel better. Now, three years from the beginning of my knee problems , constant pain was reduced by at least 50-70%, and the function of the knee is also improved by at least 50%. Now I can squat. Three years ago I could not walk up and down stairs.
    This time I will also attach pictures (for free!) of my left and right patella, so feel free to comment and share, expecially one of those who like to advertise themselves.

    Greetings from Croatia!

    1. This is Justin,

      Hi Gcoza, Thank you for sharing this information. Would you be able to share some information about about stem cell treatment? Is that an invasive surgery?

    2. Good to hear from you gcosa. I was wondering how you were getting on.

    3. Hi Gcoza, Reference to the stem cell option. Bas rutten a well known fighter has been quite outspoken about the poor state of the cartilage of his knee caps and how it completely took away all his activity. He dealt with it for a long time and saw top doctors and surgeons about solutions. Eventually He got stem cell treatment in panama. Worth searching around for his story as he is a high profile athlete who has dealt with chondromalacia.

    4. Gcoza, sorry to hear that the MRI itself was faulty and that the cartilage didn't heal as you had thought. As for the commercial marketing: I try to strike a balance here. I'm okay with people sharing websites/books/etc. that have helped, if they're here to participate in the dialogue. If they're drive-by marketers, that's where I draw the line.

    5. Richard, the thing that has touched me the most was the fact that I received a couple of commercial spams from a linked young lady. She wrote that I recently bought a Doug Kelsey¨s book ¨Runners bible¨(which is a correct), and therefore she found appropriate to send me e-mail, offering her services. From what I can gather on her website she does not work for or with Doug, but somehow she manage to get my e-mail address.

      Justin, Im not that old (Im 45). More and more young people are suffering from arthritis due to sedentary Lifestyle.
      Considering stem cells treatment, until I try, I will not know if it helps at all.
      It is not a invasive surgery, but certainly costs a lot of money.

    6. From what I know DK has retired and has sold his clinic (you can find this info in the Sports Center website). As we all know he developed a methodology to rehab joints, and all PT's who work there are certified and use it to rehab patients. Some of them (who as far as I know were the clinic directors) have started their own coaching business and they use this methodology as well. I am not aware of what arrangements they had in terms of business, money etc, but I do find it fair that someone is following up with all people who bought the book and that may still be in pain.
      It's customer support at the end of the day.

      Those emails may look spammy I agree, but if I would be in need of help, I would have been glad of receiving them.

    7. The problem is she should have given a better explanation as to why is she emailing people now to avoid confusion! :)


  7. Justin

    Hello Folks,

    I am dealing with chondromalacia patella for almost two years. Just like many of my knees get better and worse. I have three questions and I appreciate if you could help.

    1) Over the past two years, i tried to stay away from anti-inflammatory drugs. I thought because they make me feel no/less pain and so I use my knees more and cause more damage to cartilage. But recently I read some research conclusions that inflammation itself causes more damage. Should I take Anti-inflammatory immediately after the pain starts to reduce inflammation?

    2) what is the most popular anti-inflammatory drug for knee cartilage problem.
    3) I live in Toronto, Canada and I visited a few doctors so far. They all said MRI does not provide meaningful information about knee cartilage (i.e. i will not properly show the damage). Is this a true statement? I have difficulty finding a specialist who knows about knee cartilage. How can I find a good doctor?

    I appreciate any suggestions.

    1. Hey
      I have also been dealing with chondromalacia patella for around 2 years. With regards to number 3) I live in Toronto as well. So I would be very interested if you can find a good doctor who is familiar with these kind of pains.


    2. Hi Ash, sounds like we are on the same boat. I will let you know if I find a good one. I think key word for search should be patella specialist.

      Thank you

  8. Hi everyone!
    It's been a while since the last time I visited the blog.
    My update: I'm now dancing 50 min. Looking back, I realize my main problem was inflammation in the patellar tendons, and not that much chondromalacia. Although it is there (MRI showed chondromalacia grade 2 on both knees), I feel my symptoms were coming mostly from the tendons. That's why I think my recovery has been pretty fast (as we all know when talking about knees recovery we mostly talk about years, not months). It's been 1.5 year since I started my rehab and well, I can't complain. I'm still having symptoms here and there sometimes, very subtle, so I'll continue with my training.

    I am still not 100% confident my knees have healed completely. It seems hard to believe. Maybe is lack of trust. I don't know. I haven't gone back to dancing class yet (I've been mostly dancing at home) so we'll see how that goes. I know I'll probably won't be able to dance 4 hours a day as I used to but I understand I need to be grateful for where I'm at now and enjoy what I CAN do, instead of thinking of what I cannot do.


    1. Hi Athenea
      If you dont mind, could you summarize your treatment in a paragraph or two? What exercises did you do? What regimen did you follow? How did you become aware that you had inflammation in your patellar tendons?


    2. Hi Ash,
      I mostly had pain right below the patella, where the patellar tendon starts. I lost range of motion and when standing it was hard and painful to keep my legs straight. Knees were a bit flexed always.

      I have mentioned this several times already but I work with one of DK coaches and she developed a training program to address my weakness areas.

      I use a total trainer. Routines involve strength, balance, core and flexibility drills. I did (do) a lot of squats and hip exercises.

      Each person and injury are different so it's not very useful to give you a list of exercises I did. Besides they have changed so much since I started that I don't even remember anymore what I was doing at the beginning. I've done loads of different ones.

      Hope this helps!

    3. Athenea, do you mind telling me where you use a total trainer in Ireland? I can't afford one and wouldn't have the space anyway. I'm in Dublin North

    4. Deloupy I couldn't find any in Ireland/UK. I bought it from Germany through this website

    5. Thanks Athenea. I'll have to make do without one, then. No space, unless I chuck the kids toys out!

  9. I just discovered your blog. I've been diagnosed with osteoarthritis in my knees by a knee specialist. He prescribed a knee braced. I am a walker. When I walk with the brace it helps my knee a lot. How can the book help with OA? Is the book only for people with arthritis? Thanks in advance.

    1. Well, osteoarthritis is the common form of arthritis that much knee pain turns into. (Mine would have, no doubt, if I hadn't had success fixing my knees.) My book is a personal story and tries to debunk some popular thinking about bad knees and healing them; if you want mainly exercises, you might want to try Doug Kelsey's book (The 90 Day Knee Arthritis Remedy). Doug's a really smart guy and the book has a lot of exercises.

  10. I found the reason why my left knee always gets worse periodically, and I could kick myself....
    When my problems started in the summer of 2013, I had purchased a pair of Birkenstock sandals to try avoid the plantar fasciatis that my flat sandals were aggravating. I was training for a marathon at the time, and started feeling niggling pains in my knees all summer. The physio mentioned the Birkenstock were changing my leg posture, but of course I paid no head. Ah! A pair of sandals that are designed for higher arch like mine? Surely they were the best thing to use. Not. My last race was a fairly low key 10k at the end of August. After that, I battled pain and spent a few months walking with a stick until I found a great PT who did water based therapy. I progressed steadily until the summer 2014 when I started struggling again. I assumed it was due to doing more as the weather was better. I didn't see a connection with the shoes because I got better during the course of the summer when I was wearing them full time. Then got worse again in the late autumn. Then better. Then worse in the summer of 2015. Then better, then worse in the autumn. It was very puzzling and frustrating. I continued with the water physio, and each time I felt much better after a couple of weeks.
    Fast forward May 2016, I'm almost running, cycling a few minutes twice a week. My knees feel a bit weak still, but usually any pain will pass within hours. I keep working in the pool twice a week. All is well. Until I switch to my summer sandals. Within days, I can feel the pain creeping up, and it doesn't seem to get any better. Then my mum, who has arthritis in her knees and hips points to the obvious: my sandals are the problem. I usually wear customer made insoles in my shoes that I had made 5 years ago following recurring plantar fasciatis. When I switch to the Birkenstock, the sole is pre-formed and I remember now that when I first tried them on, they were killing the sole of my feet, until I got used to them. The pain in my knees flares up and it will take a few weeks to settle, then when I switch back to my winter shoes with the insoles, my legs take a while to readjust and my knee pain flares up again then settle. And so on.

    I now have to 1) get the inflammation down
    2) get a pair of sandals that won't aggravate things
    3) switch shoes progressively so that my knees don't get a massive shock
    4) kick myself :-)

    1. Great that you figured that out (or your mom did), deloupy! Yup, footwear matters. Your story reminds me a bit of my story about how I developed tendinitis in my inner leg while cycling a lot. Doc just told me to stretch. Didn't do much good. Then I figured out I had moved the seat forward, to work on my sprinting muscles, before this condition began. Moved seat back and tendinitis disappeared.

    2. Hi Deloupy,

      Could you please tell us a bit about the exercises you did in the pool?

      Thank you!

  11. its nice to hear people figure out wat causes it and eventuallly gets out of this depressing and tiring process ,,,u mentioned water physio,,, can u provide some more details regarding the same

    thanq you

  12. Hi everyone. I'm a newbie in this community. I've had joint problems for more than a year and had only recently discovered Richard's blog(thank you Richard). I left a comment under other blog entry but this looks like a better place to introduce myself, meaning my problem. I did a lot of dumb things before and after my baby was born, so 6 weeks after delivery I had loose joints all over my body. At first they were not painful. As the year passed by now the knee joints are unbearable. Along the road I figured out that it was my cartilage. I was first told the ligaments might get loose during pregnancy but didn't expect cartilage to get damaged so quickly. Due to the lack of knowledge and understanding of what was going on I kept doing dumb things to make my knees worse. So now here I am, a newbie on low-load-high-repetition road.

    I have committed so many mistakes that now almost everything is painful for me. I want to reset my knees to a pain-free state and gradually add in movements to test their effect. However the first state has never been achieved. I did purchase a total trainer but it looks lever 2 is already bothering me. Our community does have a pool but it's a hilly neighborhood and I'm pretty sure I won't survive the walk there. My baby is now 16 months old and I can't take good care of her since my attention is on how to get myself stronger in the future for her. I've been depressed about everything but it seems like I'm already a little tired of being depressed...

    A possibly interesting thing here is almost ALL my joints start to make crunchy sound right after my knees started doing so. I had asked many doctors about them but no one seems to have a clear idea. Many suspected RA or other auto-immune but all my test were clear, and I don't really have visible flare-ups in my other joints. They are just noisy, except my shoulders, fingers, right arch, which gets painful after some weight bearing activity.

    It'll be greatly appreciated if anyone can offer some advice. As for now I'm still trying to reduce my activity while finding a good exercise plan.

    Hope everybody has a smooth journey towards healing.

    1. Ree, sometimes we think we do very little but we still do far too much. My PT asked me to walk no more than 20 minutes a day to start with. And I thought I was doing nothing before! But she was right, with doing a minimal walking, some static exercises and gradually increasing, I was eventually able to start pool physio and quickly progressed to the full hour water based programme. I fractionned my 20 minutes into several 1-2 minutes walks, in line with Richard's plan. It's just about 1500 steps.
      You may not see the benefits immediately, but the most important is to break the downward spiral. Good luck!

    2. Thank you Deloupy. I agree with you I might still be doing too much. There were days I made only the necessary trips to the bathrooms and kitchen etc. The pedometer shows about 1000 steps. But I still couldn't reset to painfree state.

      My right knee also has been feeling full for months. It's not hot. In fact both knees feel extremely cold most of the time. It seems no matter what I do(or rather, not do) the fullness can't go away. I haven't tried stayed in bed for a couple of days straight. I dread the thought of that as it reminds me of my miserable bedrest days when I counted my contractions day and night.

      One question is, what do you do when you are not walking? It seems sitting the rest of the day off is not pleasant for the knees as well.

      Thanks again and good luck to you too.

    3. When I was younger I used to run a lot. I never noticed any knee problem except maybe once. I stopped running after extreme stress and depression took me. It's possible that might be a contributing factor to my knee problem.

    4. That's why I broke down my 20 minutes walk so that I wouldn't be sitting all day. In fairness, if you count the trips to the bathroom, etc, I walked more than 20 minutes. I also moved my legs so that they would stay bent and stiff. A bit like the sliders exercise that Doug Kesley prescribes in his book. Only I couldn't do the sliders. I would sometimes lie down and just move my legs with no weight bearing at all. Unfortunately, it takes a lot of trials and errors to find what works for your own case. Some people cycle, I couldn't.
      As for stress.... I have a young son with autism, and the knee pain started at the time of his diagnosis. We had also lost a close friend 2 weeks earlier. Whether the stress caused my pain or whether it made me run far more than usual and put serious pressure on my joints, I don't know. But my pain always flares up when there is a massive stress. I remember going to one of the pool sessions and all was well until I left the house and my son had a massive meltdown. I arrived late and limping. Definitively some connections there!

    5. "I also moved my legs so that they would stay bent and stiff." *wouldn't?
      Yes it seems to find the right exercise is tricky. I think Richard was a bit lucky in that :) I got into the pool the other day and my left felt much worse than its normal weight bearing state. My right was a little happier...

      As for the stress have you tried meditation? I notice Richard also mentioned that in his book and he seemed to have quite a bit progress.

    6. Hi Ree,
      That symptom of fullness it's pretty common when you have knee pain. Specially due to cartilage issues. What I would try to do if I were you is to stand up and walk every half an hour.
      Try to walk 5 minutes, slowly. If it hurts try 2 min and build it up as symptoms allow.
      You gotta move frequently, within your capabilities. But sitting or laying all day isn't good.
      You can also do quad sets (check out youtube is full of explanatory videos. Apart from squeezing your quads, squeeze your gluts and hamstrings as well, as this will help your quads tighten even more). This exercise won't strengthen your quads (as some people may think ) but it improves the quality of your joint fluid.
      Do at least 100 reps per day (hold for 5-10 seconds) for a couple of weeks.
      Can you do bilateral squats in the total trainer? Even if it's at a low level. That would help as well.

      Remember to move as much as possible even if that means going slowly.


  13. Hi everyone, newbie here :)

    I'm working my way through the comments, but I haven't found an answer to this question: Has anyone here gotten knee pain not from exercise but from REST?

    My doctors are baffled. The pain started about a month after I lost my job and went from daily walking to work (4 miles) plus intermittent movement (my job was basically meetings and email) to sitting or lying in bed all day.

    I've gotten exams and xrays and we've figured out that it isn't arthritis (yet) but some kind of RSI/misalignment issue. Walking is actually more comfortable (at least at first) but often times there is no resting position that does not hurt in a "this is making it worse" kind of way.

    Anyone else have this experience?

  14. I use to have a constant pain on the inner side of my knee about the size of a dime. It was awful. Everything I tried didn't help. Until I started taken turmeric ever day. Wa la. Pain gone.

    1. Hello!

      I just started taking tumeric (curcumin) supplements this week.

      How much did you take a day? I'm taking 2,000 mgs.

      My pain symptoms sound similar to yours. I have a small damaged section of the medial femoral condyle.

      The pain is like a sharp, concentrated pinch whenever I climbed stairs and tried to do a single leg bend past a certain point.

      It's not constant, bu only hurts for a second when the knee passes that one area.

      Do you mind me asking how long you had your pain?

      Again, I'm happy you're pain free!


  15. Hello everyone,

    Newbie alert!...:)

    Question....have any of you tried treating bone marrow edema as the cause of pain instead of general inflammation?

    The two are likely cause and effect, the question being is it the chicken or the egg that came first.

    Is edema just actually poor homoeostasis?

    I ask because I have been trying to treat 'inflammation' without any clear success.

    I have a small area of damaged cartilage on both knees in the medial femoral condyle.

    Been dealing with this since about 2011, first in my left knee (it healed completely for a few years) then it resurfaced again last year in both knees.

    Same injury, same exact spot in both knees like a perfect mirror image.

    It's a mechanical function of way my body is and of my technique as a figure skater.

    As bone is vascular (with blood supply,) I presume it would benefit to get my bone health on track and see if that helps.

    I'm finding that some people (physicians and trainers mostly) are quick to dismiss edema as a common non-issue, but as most of us have can't dismiss anything someone deems insignificant when you're looking for a solution to knee pain.

    I wholly believe I aggravated my sports injury to a point where my knees went down a road of "tolerable pain" for too long without addressing it.

    Edmema is the only thing from my MRI findings that I have not actively tried to correct as a primary source of pain.

    I am a high level figure skater, so the forces on my knees can be up to 10x my body weight when I land a jump or perform a spin.

    When the initial injury first happened in 2011, my training went from low to overdrive in a short period of time.

    My injuries are from repetitive micro-trauma, according to the radiologist and my Physiatrist. Makes perfect sense for the kind of training I do.

    I am perfectly healthy otherwise and have no pain in any other joints or muscles. My knees function properly in all other facets.

    After seeing 12 ineffective specialists that first year, I finally found a Physiatrist in my city who is considered to be a last hope, and saving grace, for many ailing people.

    We tried a couple rounds of prolotherapy which healed my injury completely for about 4 years. It seemed like a miracle. Rest and physiotherapy to strengthen my hamstrings and hip muscles were also prescribed during that time. I also took supplements (B-complex, vit A, Vit c, calcium magnesium, glucosamine chondroitin, msm etc.)

    When symptoms returned in 2015, this time in both knees, we tried prolotherapy again. It didn't have quite the same effect, but in hindsight I definitely did not rest like I should have. I went right back to activity after a few weeks and essentially undid most of the healing my body gained from the treatment.

    We then tried Platelet Rich Plasma therapy (PRP) which was painful but totally worth it.

    After 2 rounds of PRP I am about 95% better than I was last year at this time, but not quite better enough to skate at the level I need to train fully.

    Full disclosure; I am asthmatic, have seasonal allergies and mild food sensitivities, but I do not physically feel any other pain or discomfort except for my knees in the isolated region where the injury has been identified.

    Also, my knees started hurting in 2011....a few months after I became vegetarian. I returned to a meat protein diet recently thinking it may improve my healing.

    The radiologist found no other injury to the cartilage or joint tissue (ligaments, tendons, etc.)

    Do any of you think, or have experience with, the idea that edema can keep you in an inflammatory cycle?

    Does the inflammation then become the primary culprit that needs treating, or is the edema primary because it's causing the inflammation. Logically I believe the latter (second thought) is the case.

    Any insight or experiences any of you have would be greatly appreciated.

    Keep up the good fight. I healed once, which baffled my doctors at the time, and I know I WILL HEAL AGAIN!

    Don't be discourage, stay faithful.


    1. This comment has been removed by the author.

    2. My aunt had something similar (a bruise in the bone marrow). she said her doctors told her that there was no help for it except to stay completely off her feet for 5 weeks. She did this and healed. It sounds like you're not allowing yourself enough time to recover, but probably WILL heal once you figure out what you need :)

    3. Hi Amy!

      Happy to hear your aunt healed up well.

      I did some more research and figured out that I may just have a stress fracture.

      It hasn't been healing because the simple act of walking is too much load to allow the healing process to set in.

      Now I'm going to limit weight-bearing for a few weeks.

      Thanks for the reply! It's nice connecting with people on here and hearing stories from others.

      Take care!