Sunday, March 14, 2021

Some Thoughts About the Delayed Onset of Knee Pain

There was an interesting story posted on the latest open comment forum. I want to focus on one piece of it (bolded). I've edited the entire story down for space:

I have been dealing with a knee issue since mid 2017 when I felt something "tweak" while doing "sissy squats" as part of a strength training program. Since this incident this knee has bothered me off and on and several orthos have diagnosed it as patellofemoral syndrome or PFS.

Running and cycling both aggravate it. I've tried the following methods for relief/cure:

- Rest from running/cycling. I had a 4-5 month period of rest from running/biking when I had a minor hip surgery. As soon as I got back to running/biking the pain came right back.

- Strength training, particularly those described as targeted for relieving PFS (quad strengthening). Step ups, and wall sits can really aggravate it although after a few reps the pain lessens during the activity (just as it does with running/biking), it comes back after as if I've damaged something.

- Robin Mckenzie "treat your own knee" regimen - Mostly the isometric holds that he recommends. I've gotten relief from this, but not a cure.

- Stretching and tissue work that supposedly helps PFS - Mostly foam rolling the quads and IT band and similarly stretching these areas. Similar to Mckenzie's regimen, this helps but does not cure.

- Treating my symptoms as Dr Sarno's "TMS". While this treatment has worked with other chronic pain I've experienced, this knee pain has not responded to that methodology at all.

- NSAIDs/Anti-inflammatories - Naproxen/Ibuprofen will knock the pain out altogether after a few days of steady use, but this isn't a long-term solution.

This part in bold sounded so familiar I had to separate it out. I remember, during my disastrous attempt at weightlifting to strengthen my quads (because that was what the physical therapist said I was supposed to do, once my knees were strong enough!), there would initially be a little discomfort that would then become more tolerable after a few repetitions.

But -- and here's that giant, ten-foot "but" -- later my knees would become more uncomfortable. At first I chose to ignore what was obvious after a week or so of this weightlifting program: my knees were getting worse. I was backsliding. When I realized that, I got upset and briefly depressed.

Even so, this terrible experiment turned out to be valuable: it got me thinking more deeply about the whole phenomenon of "delayed onset" knee pain.

I don't think it's unusual at all for a pair of bad knees to "warm into" an activity. This is why I hate that glib line from doctors about how to treat knee pain: "If it hurts your knees, don't do it." That's far too simplistic. Your knees may feel okay during the activity, after a little initial discomfort.

The key is how they feel later. "Later" can be immediately afterwards. But I discovered "later" can also be a day or even two after the offending activity. That makes it undeniably difficult to sort out cause and effect with bad knees. Still, it's very important to know about delayed pain, I think.

Recognizing this gets you to a higher, more sophisticated level of being able to "listen to your knee pain." And that's where I think you have to be to heal effectively.

4 comments:

  1. Interestingly, although my symptoms were identical to Richards, my knees did ok with low rep/higher force weight training (deadlifts, sissy squats, kettle bell swings, wall squats, single leg deadlifts) than they did with high rep/lower force exercise (cycling, running, swim kicking) in terms of delayed pain onset. But slow walking was good. And the weight work only worked once I got the chronic inflammation much better with Celebrex. Before that, almost everything brought on pain & burning.

    ReplyDelete
  2. My name is Paige. I had a car accident 15 months ago. Up until that time I walked 2-3 miles daily. I loved my walks. I damaged cartilage (dashboard) in both knees and fractured my patella. Someone hit me in my little Corolla head on in an SUV. I deal with burning pain every day. I can't work 5 days per week. I'm on day 3 right now and am miserable and it won't get better this week. I end up having to take off work. I've done everything I've been told - therapy out the "wahzoo" and then PRP and I'm still in this shape and so hopeless. I don't know if I can even do my teaching job next year as most of my sick days are gone and I am missing all the time still after this long. The concrete floors in the school don't seem to be helping me get better and I'm feeling desperate for something to help. My patella is even still slightly fractured so I'm on crutches at work but my right knee also hurts terribly and it was not fractured. Help.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Burning pain could be loss of tissue homeostasis like I had, esp. if it is in both knees. Look at all the material by Dr Scott Dye online to understand this issue. I had it for 6+ yrs and the only way I could knock out the chronic inflammation was a long term course of Celebrex, combined with being really careful how hard I pushed my knees, then gradually strengthening everything. My knees are great now.
      Here's some info to get started:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGLisqHx8sM

      https://aoj.amegroups.com/article/view/4438/5056

      I found most of the medicos I saw completely ignored this issue, and it was only when I took this evidence to my GP did I get on the Celebrex & the path to cure.

      Delete
  3. I tried to give Celebrex a shot but had to stop after a week due to the intestinal issues it was causing - so just be aware of the potential side effects. I've posted on this site in the past and appreciate TriAgain's story and insights. I’ve been dealing with the “pfps” condition for about a few years now, started as a ski injury but never really healed. Since I've seen others post in a similar fashion, I’ll share what has and has not helped along with things I haven’t tried but might:
    Helped:
    • Swimming – similar to TriAgain, using a buoy but no ankle ties. Minimal kicking doesn’t seem to aggravate it.
    • Biking – this doesn’t seem to bother it while exercising, but there are times that I feel the delayed onset of pain that could have been attributed to it.
    • Exercising in general (walking, core workouts)- I think finding the right amount of movement, even if it’s just walking is important. Seems to prevent the achy feeling in the knee and is good for your mental health.
    • Voltaren – this is a nsaid cream that seems to help reduce the discomfort but really any pain reliever cream does help.
    • Avoid sitting or driving for extended periods of time. Stop and go traffic bothers it the most.
    • Gentle yoga- avoiding deep knee bends
    • Mental aspect – I think learning more about pain science can help cope with it. Less stress seems to correlate with less pain. Meditation is helpful but don’t do it enough.
    • Educational resources – this blog, painscience.com, Dr. Dye’s research, Greg Lehman’s site
    • Massage – isn’t a cure but I think it brings temporary relief and reduces stress.
    What hasn’t:
    • Physical therapy – went through 3 different PTs. All similar exercise approaches. My belief is that the rehabilitation has more to do with the gradual exposure to movements rather than strength or balancing of muscles to “heal” the condition. In other words, I agree with TriAgain that many conditions would fall under the loss of tissue homeostasis.
    o Includes session of dry needling and multiple manual therapy
    • Chiropractor
    • Weightlifting – even upper body workouts tend to bother the knee. Possibly due to tension exerted.
    • NSAIDs – as far as anti-inflammatories I haven’t really noticed them helping even short-term. Tried the Celebrex but it tore up my stomach – suppose I could try a different type.
    • Taping/brace – I think this is a sensory thing. It was beneficial in the beginning but I don’t feel like it provides much relief at this point.
    • TENs machine – tried it a handful of times with minimal results. Suppose I could try it with a more regimented routine.
    • Steroid injection – I did one a couple years back and it seemed to help but I also was on vacation after taking it. My knee seems to bother me less on vacation in general – not sure if it’s due to the distractions, less stress, walking more/sitting less, or combination of all of these.
    Haven’t tried:
    • PRP or stem cell
    • Bone scan – primary doc discouraged getting one, said that MRI would show everything…
    • Power icing – discussed on painscience’s site. This is direct application for multiple times per day
    • Pilates – seems like a good workout for core/cardio that would be knee friendly
    • Other water workouts
    • Surgery – synovectomy
    • Chronic pain meds – explore if it’s nerve related?
    I do feel like I’ve improved in the last few years but there are ebbs and flows. I even still play sport on occasion including skiing and basketball. This may be what’s prolonged it for this long, but I’ve gone long stretches of trying to rest/gentle walk only but didn’t seem to improve. Maybe I need try Richard’s method again but for a longer timeframe – since everyone does heal differently.

    ReplyDelete