Tuesday, February 18, 2025

A Few (Hopefully) Final Thoughts on Structuralism and Knee Pain

I didn’t originally envision my recent thoughts on structuralism as a two-parter, but hey, I’m at the point now where I go with the material I get …

This blog of course is in semi-retirement, now that “Saving My Knees” is nearing its 15th birthday, and reader interest has understandably begun to wane. However, for some reason, over the last couple of months there has been a little upsurge in book orders, which always gets me thinking about the blog again.

I received a comment about my last post’s musings on structuralism. To recap, structuralism has been described as a school of thought that attributes the origin of musculoskeletal complaints to one or more biomechanical abnormalities. For instance, a structuralist may blame your mistracking patella for your knee pain (even though there are lots of people with mistracking patellas who have no knee pain).

I got a comment that raised some good, thoughtful points. Here it is, edited and notated, with some responses at the end: 

I agree with your point about structuralism. But the functional PT exercises get at something slightly different. Don't you think that the *way* we use our bodies should matter?(1) Let's say I sit at a desk all day for work. My movement patterns will probably be pretty damn different from a hunter-gatherer's. My muscle tone and activations will be different. This idea isn't about fixed (or mostly-fixed) anatomical differences, but about what muscles we use and how we use them.(2)

For example, my right knee has had issues on and off for many years. My right achilles, hamstring, and hip also have had mild injuries. It's possible it's a coincidence that everything is on the right side, but I think my body has been compensating for injuries, throwing off the whole system.(3)

In running, there are different types of running gait, some of which put more strain on the calves, others on the quads. Why do different people run in different ways?(4) There's going to be some fixed anatomical reason, but the muscle tone and activation will also influence running form. Tight ankles means someone is more likely to turn their feet outwards, for example. That can cause problems in the knee.(5)

(1) Does the way we use our bodies matter? Of course. It would be hard to find anyone sensible who would dispute that. If my favorite hobby is jumping out a 15-foot-high barn window, onto hard ground below, I’ll probably develop knee pain before long. Or, as a less extreme example, if I’m a sedentary desk warrior living in a snowy climate, and only get winter exercise from shoveling snow, I stand a good chance of developing back pain, during the cold months, from overusing flabby muscles.

(2) At least some of the ideas of functional physical therapy make sense to me. I wouldn’t argue with doing exercises that enable us to better handle everyday activities. I probably qualify as doing these myself. On workday mornings, for example, I do a few minutes of the “bird dog” yoga pose to keep my back strong. I tell people that I do exercises like this to prepare for sitting behind a desk for eight to ten hours. And I’m 100% serious.

(3) Could a body compensating for injuries cause more injuries? Absolutely. Use your body repeatedly in unnatural ways and pay the price. In the book I call these “compensation injuries.” I developed back pain in Hong Kong from sitting at work with my legs straight out, supported by an under-desk sling, in order to relieve my knee pain. That put too much stress on my back.

(4) Running form is a fascinating subject by itself. I ran cross country in high school. And the guy on the team with the weirdest running form – I can still see his arms swinging from side to side – was the fastest guy on the team. Anatomy, muscles, soft tissues, I’m sure there’s an interplay between them all that explains why someone runs the way they do.

(5) So, when it comes to running, I’m sure some of my own issues stem from being a pronator. That has implications beyond wear marks on the outer edge of my shoes.

Anyway, this may come as a surprise, but part of a structural analysis makes sense to me. For instance, as noted above, I used to be a runner.

Even though I have a good body for running, it’s probably not ideal. I’ve watched the truly elite runners. Even if I had their conditioning, their weight, their ability to process oxygen, I still probably wouldn’t be able to do what they do. And it’s probably for structural reasons.

We’re not all designed to run marathons, or even 10k’s sometimes. Even with proper training, certain body types may never be able to run 60 miles a week without problems, while others can. I recall the time I ran a half-marathon in Switzerland, and all the training, and the niggling pains, and thinking, “I probably don’t want to push myself into a race beyond this distance.”

So I think that, while healthy, we do operate within some kind of overall structural limitations. But where the structuralist story falls apart for me is when a runner develops knee pain, and a structuralist physical therapist discovers tight ankles, and exclaims, Ah hah! We need to stretch out those ankles, because that’s the problem!

I think this fails because:

(1) It can be easy to confuse cause and effect. To take a different example: you may have a weak right hip along with your right knee pain. But the answer isn’t just “strengthen the hip to fix the knee pain.” As Kelsey notes, “People with knee pain will almost always have weakness of the hip on the same side as the knee pain.” What he proposes: Fix the entire hip-knee-ankle chain together, using reduced loads, instead of trying to cure the right hip “imbalance” by strengthening it in isolation.

(2) But going back to the tight ankle: it’s virtually impossible to prove that the tight ankles caused the knee injury in the first place. Lots of things could have caused or somehow contributed to that knee pain; there are many forces feeding into the knee joint. Just because a therapist finds a tight ankle doesn’t mean that that was a prime mover for the resulting pain.

(3) But let’s suppose it was. Suppose the therapist has “God’s Diagnostic Tool.” And God’s Diagnostic Tool indicates that a tight ankle, over time, basically led to this problem. Then what do you do?

I think you’re still best served by an “envelope of function” approach to treatment. You need to back off your running and keep that knee within the acceptable envelope, moving it but not pushing it too hard, until it heals. And maybe you have to accept that you need to train more carefully, or you’re not built for say marathons.

I know, at this point, the structuralist would probably jump in to say, “And stretch that tight ankle!” But personally I’m a skeptic of stretching (but a big proponent of warming up). The fact is, people run for years with their tight ankles and other little muscular and tissue imbalances and they do okay, as long as they stay within their “envelope of function” ranges and don’t overtrain.

(4) Sometimes it’s just impossible to “redress” the imbalances that are found anyway. What if the PT thinks that the imbalance to fix is a too-weak vastus medialis oblique (VMO) muscle that needs to be stronger to stabilize the patella? So he prescribes VMO-strengthening exercises.

That sounds great except … they happen to be useless, as Doug Kelsey explains here:

People with knee pain, especially patellofemoral pain, are often told by clinicians to strengthen their VMO to improve the alignment and tracking of the patella ... But, since the VMO doesn’t have its own nerve supply, you can’t isolate the muscle from the rest of the quadriceps … this isn’t just my opinion. Cerny examined this in 1995 and found no difference between the VMO activity and the rest of the quadriceps for a variety of common exercises used to target the VMO.

Anyway, at the end of the day, I’m not saying that structure, imbalances and crookedness are always irrelevant. I’m just saying that, if I’m trying to heal from an injury, I think the idea of staying within an envelope of function and slowly increasing load, while getting enough movement, is generally going to be a more successful (and logical) way to treat the problem.

There will always be exceptions, naturally. But they don’t prove the rule.

11 comments:

  1. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  2. Hello Richard
    Thank you for your reflection.
    This helps me personally to find my way out of problems with my knees.
    Keeping in mind of what you stated ebove it seems to me that everyone innitially has "recommended" (by God) envelope of function and all we need to stay healthy is to understand it as soon as possbile in order to stay within limits of our body's abilities.
    I mean running marathon is not a good idea for the ones that have some structual limitations or risky.
    Once we are out of it - we have troubles that can be fixed by returing to EF to get our joints back
    Best wishes from Moscow

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  3. Hi Richard,
    I'm the original commenter. I might as well add my name since this is becoming a conversation (I appreciate your discussion). I think the envelop-of-function theory can be compatible with some cautiously-structuralist ideas--- for example, in the EoF framework, different activities put different amounts of load on a joint. Running with a knee valgus may put a bit more load on the joint than running without the valgus. Someone who runs with valgus may be injury-free because they have adapted to that load. However, for two equally-untrained individuals, if one person has valgus then they are more likely to sustain an injury for the same amount of running because of the slightly increased load due to valgus.

    By the way, I've been looking into nerve issues, and I wonder if you've ever attributed your knee pain to nerve pain. Nerve pain can show up as a burning type of pain, which I know you had. My PT recently found that I have a functional leg length discrepancy and a twisted pelvis leading to nerve pain. Whether this is a cause or effect of the knee pain, I don't know, but I suspect it's a cause. Indeed, a functional leg length discrepancy puts more load on one of the knees (could be either the shorter or the longer, I think, depending on how you move). Perhaps that extra load was the straw that the caused the camel to develop knee pain.

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    1. I see the phrase "hopefully final" in your title. Haha, but this topic is endlessly fascinating... (and also so important to discussions about injuries and pain)

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  4. Hi everyone,

    I'm a 42-year-old woman who has had knee problems since May of last year due to overdoing running.

    I started having pain while sitting, which went away when I stood up. Wanting to improve, I walked a lot and rode a stationary bike because it felt good, but then the pain got worse.

    My MRI diagnosis was bilatetal mild patellar chondropathy, bilateral Hoffa fat pad edema, and patellofemoral syndrome.

    I continued working while sitting and doing physical therapy, but I didn't improve until September, when the pain became unbearable, not just sitting but constant. Even the touch of pants or sheets became unbearable, and I had to take sick leave from work.

    To make it worse, I was prescribed shock waves and cortisone injections into the Hoffa fat pad, and hyaluronic acid injections for the chondropathy. The result: my inflammation and pain increased dramatically, and now I've been off work for seven months with no improvement (in fact, I'm worse).

    I've tried other physical therapists, but they haven't worked out well either. I guess I'm a difficult case, and they think in "muscle progress time" instead of what my knees need, and I keep hurting myself.

    So here I am, with my life completely cut short. My day is reduced to sitting at home in pain, switching from back pain if I sit with my legs stretched out (compensatory postures...) to knee pain if I walk or bend, while I frantically search the internet for possible solutions based on other people's experiences.

    That's how I came across the book SMK and this blog. Reading them has helped me a lot to gain some hope and understand that I need to give myself a lot more time and find a gentle, high-rep, low-load activity that I can do pain-free and on which to build my recovery (but I still don't know which one, everything hurts!!).

    If anyone is still reading this, I want to send my best wishes to anyone going through something similar and extend my sincere thanks to Richard, for the book and blog, and to everyone who shared their experiences in comments years ago. You're a source of inspiration.

    Best regards, everyone.

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    1. Hello Elisa, Im in similar position like you regarding the pants and sheets.... I am battling my knee problem since june 2024. Plica in both knees, left knee chondromalacia grade 3, right knee went from grade 1 to no chondromalacia. Prescribed ESWT for both plica for 10 weeks, 4 months later still there, with fat pad inflammation...I am making some minor progress lately with walking every 12 min for 100-200 steps which comes to arround 6000 steps daily. ADDITIONALLY my wife gave me 100 W infrared lamp which is somewhat helping with fat pad (last 4 days)...so I can handle my pants for 8 hours😂...best of luck

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    2. Well, I'd say you're finding what feels right for you and on the right path to recovery. I'm so glad! Keep moving forward!

      As you and as Richard, I'm going to try spreading my daily steps (~3000) throughout the day, and see if that way I can get to my "no pain" point and have a baseline to build on.

      I'm also going to try the red light on Hoffa's pad, fingers crossed!.

      P.S. I never imagined spending an entire fall and winter in shorts. Well, as we say in Spain, "we'll always have the laughs" 😅

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    3. Hopefully it helps you infrared, there is some science behind actually, wavelenght has to be between 700 and 1000 nm or so...

      Im from Slovenia, our winters are a little colder, so Im looking quite crazy sometimes in short pants 😂.... Best of luck!

      Danijel

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  5. Just a comment generally to remind people interested in this blog that Laurie Kurtz Kelly is a fantastic option for anyone looking for a guided recovery plan. She does virtual appointments. I have been working with Laurie for a long time, not for knee related issues but for cartilage damage from a broken ankle. Her approach (like the one favored here in this blog) is centered around staying within and slowly increasing the envelope of function. She is so incredibly knowledgeable and has always has a specific strategy to deal with all of the set backs we have encountered along the way as we work through her plan. Regular physical therapy did not work for me. Thankfully, I found Laurie through this blog and its discussions about Doug Kelsey.

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  6. Hi ,

    Found this blog september 2024 when I hit my rock bottom. I was lucky to get book from Richard, which led me to Doug Kelsey, Laurie and of course dr. Scott F Dye with the EOF "philosophy" so to speak.

    I am 48 years old, was active and training for about last 25 years, daily bodyweight "stuff", boxing, kettlebells...

    June 2024 pain "creeped in" somewhat under the radar, first left knee, a few weeks later the right knee. MRI showed plica in both knees, chondromalacia patela grade 2 in the left and grade 1 in the right. Was presribed cycling, classic strenghtening around the knee and stretching (even though I was fit and strong - was doing 1000s of bodyweight squats weekly, hiking - i am a forester, I tracked bears for a living). I stoped my workouts, just walked all summer...till I couldnt walk anymore in september. My knees felt so inflamed that I couldnt wear pants.
    I went to second orthopedic surgeon which said plicas were my problem and prescribed 10 weeks of ESWT (weekly sessions), then I had to wait 3 months to see what ESWT did. It basically healed my synovits, plicas are still there (thin aparently) but developed additional
    fad pad inflammation, which is where I am now... My grade 2 progressed to grade 3 (probaly in the summer when i just walked) and
    my grade 1 went to 0....
    Lately, I went back to Richards book where I realised what actually means gentle movements as much as possible. He did 100 steps every 10 min, so I tried the same...I discovered already after 2 weeks that it works. So basicly I spend my day on the 12 min cycle, which tells me to move. My daily total is 6000 steps, so if I have easy days I will spent those 12 min at the desk in the office (or sofa at home) resting and then walking couple of minutes and then rest again for 12 min...I am lucky that my wife is supporting me in my recovery, so she would just send me every 12 min to do small task (dishes, trash, house chores....). If Im in the mall, I will try to rest after about 20 min of standing/walking if theres no bench I will just sit in the car for 12 min...What I notice the most important things are: move every 12 min (even if just 10-20 steps) AND dont go beyond daily total limit (in my case currently arround 6000 steps)

    Before I implemented this I did also 6000 steps but it was not so structured so I had hot knees every evening (it would creep in around 8 AM). Now for the last month hot knees are not there anymore, knees feel stronger and "lubricated" and I rarely have any knee pain.... ADDITIONALY , I use infrared lamp daily for 10 min for the last week and my fat pad is calming down also. There is something about that wavelenght (1000 nm) that helps against inflammation, its not heat becasue warm shower doesnt feel good for me...

    Meeting my new ortho in 2 days to evaluate my "thin plicas" if they need operating but other then that I feel almost fine, considering my 6 mm wide deffect - nearly to the bone...

    Since I introduced myself in the topic of Structualism, I agree to Richard and others, I will just add my experience: I noticed I can walk
    easier if I use my glutes (glide walking - Gokhale method was big
    help to me). Side effect is my glutes are really developed (my wife loves my glute meds from walking :-) ...but as far as I will go with structualism....

    thank you Richard and every body who posts (especially older posts)

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    1. I am from EU, i apologise for my english 😅

      Danijel

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